Episode 685: John Davis (Superdrag)

[00:00:12] I was just kind of frustrated with the whole situation. And when I tried to express my feelings about it, maybe I could have gone about it in a better way. But then, yeah, it just kind of blew up from there. And, you know, things were said that you can't unsay and that was it.

[00:00:44] You know, from that point on, I just thought of it as a completely new project. You know, totally different perspective and moving forward. I mean, we didn't really pay much attention to, you know, the arrangements we had before and the, you know, a lot of the any of the pre-production type things that had been talked about before we just kind of started all over again.

[00:01:10] I imagine that things can get really heated just generally in the process of making a record because it's obviously the songs and the situation and the band are things that you feel intensely passionate about.

[00:01:21] Well, yeah. And, you know, we, I started, I started writing this stuff in January of 21.

[00:01:31] And, you know, the, the thing that I heard a lot was let's don't, let's don't get in a hurry. Let's don't rush anything. Let's, you know, let's look like, let's just don't get in a hurry. And so we didn't get in a hurry.

[00:01:44] And that was coming from the band or the producer?

[00:01:48] Well, really, I mean, that was before the producer got involved. And so, you know, we really did take our time. Like I've, I've said this elsewhere, but, you know, from the sitting in the garage in the middle of night, writing songs phase to the actual, you know, production.

[00:02:10] I probably spent more time thinking about this bunch of songs than I have any other, you know, in 30 years of doing this.

[00:02:21] So it took a really long time to, to move forward to the point where we could take some of them into the studio.

[00:02:33] And even at that point, after about six months time, we only had two songs finished.

[00:02:43] So, you know, it just, like I said, I just got pretty frustrated with the whole situation and, you know, it's unfortunate.

[00:02:54] I think, you know, a lot of it was just kind of due to a misunderstanding, but unfortunately that's the way things happen sometimes.

[00:03:04] You know, I mean, obviously I just played two shows with super drag like a couple of weeks ago.

[00:03:11] So, I mean, as far as the four of us, things are fine between us, but the record just didn't work out the way we planned.

[00:03:22] And, you know, I'd, I'd like to think we will make a new record.

[00:03:27] I just, it just won't be this record.

[00:03:29] What was behind that initial, I guess, push to not, again, to take your time?

[00:03:37] Was it, was it, hey, we're in the middle of a pandemic.

[00:03:39] We've got all the time in the world.

[00:03:40] We might as well really work on this thing.

[00:03:45] Well, you know, I think in the, in the past, you know, there were times when I was in more of a hurry to make things happen than anybody else.

[00:03:58] And maybe I kind of forced things, you know, there are times when you can like try too hard and force things to happen.

[00:04:07] And sometimes you end up taking the fun out of it, you know, and I, and I certainly, you know, agreed with that from that point of view.

[00:04:15] I mean, I wouldn't have wanted to do that at all.

[00:04:20] Just thinking, thinking back.

[00:04:24] Now, there, there was a record we made called Industry Giants quite a few years ago.

[00:04:33] And I mean, I can, I can remember the day after Christmas, like talking to either the guy that was mixing the record or the guy that was mastering the record, like trying to get it finished, you know.

[00:04:48] And that was kind of like a guerrilla effort where we, you know, we, we went in and out of a bunch of different studios as opportunity presented itself.

[00:04:59] And we would like show up, you know, with no rehearsal whatsoever and just work up the songs right there on the spot and do as much as we could, like in 48 hours.

[00:05:10] You know, and we, and we did that, I guess, six or seven times and ended up with the record.

[00:05:17] But to me, you know, it, it kind of sounds like a record that was made in a bunch of different studios under a bunch of different, a bunch of different recording scenarios.

[00:05:29] You know, so I guess that might be one instance where if we had taken our time a little more, maybe the result would have been different.

[00:05:40] I don't know.

[00:05:42] But, but in this case, you know, I think it was just because we hadn't done anything in a really long time.

[00:05:52] You know, before we, before we started working on this music, we hadn't really done anything since 2010.

[00:06:01] And I guess maybe, you know, part of it was just kind of wanting to ease into things and not, you know, not go in the studio next week and try to record, you know, I mean, that, that makes sense to me for looking at it that way.

[00:06:18] But we certainly, we certainly did not rush anything on this one.

[00:06:25] Well, yeah.

[00:06:25] To the point, it sounds like you almost perhaps shot yourself in the foot a bit.

[00:06:31] Well, you could say that.

[00:06:33] I definitely could argue.

[00:06:35] It ended well, right?

[00:06:36] I mean, you know, it's the record came out.

[00:06:39] But, but I, I guess, you know, maybe there's a lesson to be learned that either end of the extreme in terms of the amount of time that you take on something has, they're, they're both double-edged swords.

[00:06:51] Yeah, I agree.

[00:06:53] Your sense on, on that last, I guess what to date is the last super drag record is, it sounds like you're getting at that.

[00:06:59] It sort of suffered that it was almost pieced together, but it was also just, you felt like you didn't take or have enough time with those songs.

[00:07:11] Well, maybe not.

[00:07:13] I mean, and we didn't have the benefit of ever having played any of the songs live, which is always to your advantage, you know, when it comes time to record or even just having the opportunity to rehearse.

[00:07:30] Yeah, I mean, it, it was, it was unlike any of the other records, you know, for, for better or worse.

[00:07:38] Given the fact that it was started in 2021 and, you know, there certainly wasn't a lot of touring happening back then.

[00:07:46] It, it would have been difficult even under perfect circumstances to have actually gone out in front of a cloud and played these songs.

[00:07:55] Yeah, definitely.

[00:07:57] Yeah.

[00:07:58] I mean, it, from, from the get go, I mean, it was just, uh, you know, I, I never looked at it as the gateway to like going out and doing tours again.

[00:08:12] Cause that's, it's just not possible for us.

[00:08:17] Um, not right now anyway.

[00:08:20] Uh, so yeah, I mean the, the whole idea was just to get together and make a great record.

[00:08:28] And there were things I liked about, um, you know, what, what was happening in the studio, even to the limited, the limited amount of work that we were able to do.

[00:08:42] I mean, it's not that I didn't like the sounds or the playing or anything else.

[00:08:48] It was just, um, just drug on and on.

[00:08:52] Um, and I, I, I guess I just got a little bit frustrated with it.

[00:08:59] And like I said, I, you know, I could have been maybe a little more diplomatic in the way I went about trying to talk to people about it.

[00:09:09] But, uh, you know, things were, you know, I guess, uh, it's true what they say about email.

[00:09:19] It's just sometimes it can be completely misunderstood or, uh, you know, it can end up, uh, being taken in ways that you never intended.

[00:09:29] And, you know, things just sort of, uh, disintegrated from there.

[00:09:36] I mean, I'm saying this to you as we're doing this over, uh, zoom right now with the cameras turned off, but, you know, obviously you lose something when you're not in the room with somebody, when you can't see their voice, when you can't, when you can't hear them.

[00:09:53] Um, and I think that applies to both email and to a certain extent making music.

[00:09:58] Yeah, I think you're right.

[00:10:00] So, you know, it's on one, on one hand, it was an unfortunate way for things to sort of unravel, but I really couldn't be more pleased with the record that we did end up with.

[00:10:14] Uh, and I, I think, you know, taking that, taking that second, uh, that second effort and sort of that taking another approach to the whole thing.

[00:10:28] I really like the way it, the way things changed because almost all the songs changed pretty drastically.

[00:10:39] Um, you know, the, um, the big thing was, uh, just trying to make, uh, make them all shorter.

[00:10:49] They, they, they all got faster and they all got shorter and, you know, any, any, any superfluous bars were removed.

[00:11:02] Any, any, any spot in the song where you're kind of hanging around, just waiting for the next idea to happen.

[00:11:07] Like we eliminated all of that.

[00:11:11] And, uh, I credit Stuart Pack, the producer a lot with that.

[00:11:16] Uh, you know, he, he brought a lot to it in terms of the arrangements and, you know, his son was doing the engineering and also playing drums.

[00:11:29] So the two of them together, you know, uh, we probably didn't spend more than an hour playing any of them, uh, before we started going for drums.

[00:11:43] So, I mean, it w it was radically different, but.

[00:11:48] You know, they play together so well.

[00:11:51] Uh, you know, Stuart had, like, I think I've, I said this somewhere before, but he, I mean, he did more pre-production in an hour and a half than the other guy did six months.

[00:12:05] Um, you know, and, and, uh, he sort of treated these songs like they were his.

[00:12:12] And as a result, I mean, I, I think we ended up with.

[00:12:17] A record that I, I personally liked better than the one we started making before.

[00:12:22] Trimming all the fat was almost a reaction to maybe the frustration, uh, around the amount of time that it took to put out there.

[00:12:31] So once you're actually back in the process of doing the record again, you strip it down as much as possible and, and in a sense, get things on tape as quickly as possible.

[00:12:39] Yeah.

[00:12:40] Well, I mean, we there for a while, um, we were working.

[00:12:46] On every, every Tuesday and Thursday, we'd get together for like three or four hours and do, you know, either work on arranging one and, and putting down the drums or else, you know, doing vocals or guitar or whatever.

[00:13:03] But there was, there really was an absolute minimum of overdubs across the whole thing.

[00:13:12] I mean, there are definitely a handful that make it sound, you know, a little more recordy, but by and large, I mean, it's just guitar, bass and drums.

[00:13:23] Uh, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't compare it to the Ramones, but I was definitely inspired by, you know, the Spartan-ness of the first Ramones LP where, you know, you don't hear, you don't really hear anything that you wouldn't see on stage.

[00:13:45] And that, that, that was definitely, um, inspirational.

[00:13:51] Lyrically though, or thematically the songs largely stayed intact.

[00:13:57] Yeah.

[00:13:58] Oh yeah.

[00:13:59] Yeah.

[00:13:59] I don't, I don't really think any of the lyrics changed.

[00:14:03] It's just the, sort of the approach to playing.

[00:14:06] You know, I'm curious what that experience is like from the standpoint, I mean, obviously you've, over your long career, you've had opportunities and I've even, you know, listened to you discuss this in interviews about sort of revisiting some of the old records and, you know, maybe kind of coming to peace with some of the flaws that you'd seen in them.

[00:14:26] But this is an interesting instance where, you know, these songs being written at a very specific time at a very, you know, I'm speaking for myself, but I think I'm speaking for a lot of people when I say like a very, just a very dark time that, that they were a product of that.

[00:14:46] So coming back around, you know, a year or two later and revisiting them and getting that glimpse into the you of 2021, what was that experience like?

[00:14:59] Oh, it was tough.

[00:15:03] It was tough.

[00:15:04] I mean, struggling with depression is definitely one of the primary, you know, themes of this album without a doubt.

[00:15:18] And I don't know, it's, it's kind of tough, you know, to stare down that black hole and like know quite what to say about it.

[00:15:37] But, you know, take even, you know, taking the, the most unpleasant things in life and, and using them as like a springboard to create something new.

[00:15:49] I think that always helps.

[00:15:55] And I just tried to be as, as honest as possible.

[00:16:00] What, you know, with the, the writing and I just think that's always the best way.

[00:16:05] Specifically with this set of songs, how did that, how, how did that honesty manifest itself?

[00:16:10] Well, I mean, it was, I was having a lot of insomnia at the time and it was a lot of sitting in the garage in the middle of the night.

[00:16:21] Just trying not to wake anybody up.

[00:16:26] Yeah.

[00:16:27] I don't know.

[00:16:28] I mean, the, the method for writing songs for me really has never changed in 30 years.

[00:16:38] Just, you know, just play, just find, even if it's, even if it's like two bars or four bars, just find some kind of a musical thing that, that's worth playing again and again.

[00:16:52] And just play it again and again until a melody kind of suggests itself.

[00:16:56] And then the first thing that comes to mind is when I start singing.

[00:17:00] I've certainly dealt with depression and, and certainly dealt with depression during the pandemic, but I've also had insomnia at various points in my life.

[00:17:11] And, and I think that I'm sure people have talked about this.

[00:17:15] I haven't really heard it articulated.

[00:17:17] Um, but one of the things I think that doesn't get discussed a lot about insomnia is how lonely it is, you know, especially in a, in a weird way, especially if you're in a house with other people and you're just the only one awake and around.

[00:17:40] Yeah.

[00:17:42] No, I definitely agree.

[00:17:45] It's very lonely.

[00:17:47] Writing this in, in, in the middle of the night, it was kind of like a dark time on top of another dark time.

[00:17:55] It sounds like.

[00:17:56] Yeah.

[00:17:58] Yeah.

[00:17:59] I think so.

[00:18:01] But you know, there, there's, uh, there are some songs on the record that are a lot more lighthearted.

[00:18:09] Well, maybe not a lot more.

[00:18:11] Some of them are a lot more light.

[00:18:13] Um, but you know, it's, I guess it's just kind of a real picture of life at the time.

[00:18:20] I mean, it's, you know, there, there aren't a lot of great songs written about how things are just so, so.

[00:18:31] Not, not that I'm aware of.

[00:18:33] Obviously this starts, we start kind of, um, heading down the path of cliche with this, but you know, a lot is made about people using.

[00:18:43] Um, whatever form of creativity as an outlet for whatever they're, they're dealing with at the time.

[00:18:52] Um, do you feel that for you, that songwriting has become an even more essential part of that process as you've gotten older?

[00:19:02] Sure.

[00:19:04] Well, yeah.

[00:19:05] I mean, it's, it's, uh, it's just been such a big part of my life for such a long time.

[00:19:12] Um, I, I mean, I, I definitely have, there definitely have been times when I wanted to take all my gear and throw it in the river and never see it again.

[00:19:24] Um, but no, I mean, I, I, I'm a lifer until, until the ideas run out, you know, and thankfully they haven't run out yet.

[00:19:37] What are some of those, those moments where you wanted to chuck all the gear in a body of water?

[00:19:43] Well, it's just, um, it's, you know, it can really break your heart sometimes.

[00:19:50] Sometimes, or, or sometimes it's like every, every time you make a record, it ends up breaking your heart.

[00:19:58] Uh, you know, cause you, you pour your whole mind and soul in there.

[00:20:08] And, you know, we did a, we did, uh, several albums with the leads of memory.

[00:20:16] And I felt like each one was better than the last, you know, but it's just hard.

[00:20:25] Sometimes it's just hard to find an audience or, and it's, you know, the, well, I was just going to say the main, the main object, you know, is to, to reach as many people as possible and have as many ears as possible.

[00:20:42] Uh, on it, whatever it is.

[00:20:45] Um, and also, you know, I lived in Nashville for a long time and, uh, it's kind of in, in some ways, I mean, it's kind of a weird place to try to do music.

[00:20:58] Somewhat ironic.

[00:21:00] I, I, I think.

[00:21:01] Well, yeah, I mean, it's on the one hand, I mean, you can't fill a brick without hitting a musician.

[00:21:07] Um, but maybe that's part of the problem, you know?

[00:21:12] But yeah, I lived there for 18 years.

[00:21:16] Um, there's, I mean, I have friends there that I miss, but that's about it.

[00:21:22] You know?

[00:21:23] Why was Nashville a difficult place for you to make music?

[00:21:27] Well, I, I don't think it's not a difficult place to make music.

[00:21:32] I mean, there, there, uh, you know, plenty of facilities.

[00:21:38] And I mean, we, we got to work at some really cool studios.

[00:21:42] Um, I think it's just hard to get anybody to pay attention.

[00:21:51] There's so much noise.

[00:21:53] Yeah.

[00:21:53] There's, you know, there's so much happening.

[00:21:56] And when I, when I first got there, it was like 2002.

[00:22:03] But the, I mean, it changed so much in the, in the interim, you know, those, those 18 years.

[00:22:09] I mean, it was just like a completely different world, you know?

[00:22:15] Uh, but you know, in, in spite of that, I mean, it really, when it comes down to actually making records and writing songs and everything,

[00:22:28] I mean, it really makes no difference what the, what their ultimate fate will be.

[00:22:33] You know, you, it doesn't, it doesn't change anything as far as the actual process of making the art, you know, whether business is good or bad or whatever.

[00:22:47] Uh, the, the, the thing that I, that, that, that pleased me the most about the Leaves of Memory thing is that it always sustained, sustained itself.

[00:22:58] And we never had to risk anything, you know, it always, uh, we, you know, we did one, one record where we had some label help.

[00:23:08] And then we did a couple of, uh, cycles that were just completely full DIY a hundred percent.

[00:23:15] And, you know, with the cream from that, we were able to make, um, our fourth record moonshot.

[00:23:25] And, you know, on day one, we had the money there to, to make it.

[00:23:31] So, you know, that was cool.

[00:23:32] You have probably about as much as anybody you've been through the ringer when it comes to, to working with labels.

[00:23:39] And you've seen how you, you, I'm always, it's always really interesting to me to talk to bands that were around specifically in the nineties for that moment.

[00:23:54] That almost, in a sense, that kind of, that last, not only was it a last gasp of the record industry, but there was a, it seemed like because of that, that there was just, there was a lot of flailing happening.

[00:24:09] There was a lot of money being pumped into things.

[00:24:12] And a lot of folks ended up getting a lot of support because of that.

[00:24:16] Um, you know, you, you had a nice couple of records there, but it sounds like they effectively left you high and dry.

[00:24:26] I think, uh, what was it?

[00:24:28] The third album.

[00:24:29] Yeah, that was, uh, that was the hill worth dying on basically.

[00:24:36] Um, and I don't, I don't regret the way that all went down.

[00:24:41] I mean, I, if anything, I take pride in the fact that, you know, we were just unwilling to change anything about it to please this person that obviously really didn't give a fuck, you know, uh, at the end of the day.

[00:25:01] Um, but you know, I can't really say that we did much of anything to make their jobs easier.

[00:25:12] Uh, I mean, honestly, you know, in hindsight, you know, they, they turned us loose, um, to make that second record.

[00:25:21] And I mean, we sat in sound city for three months, which seems, seems like pretty self-indulgent looking back at it now.

[00:25:31] But I mean, that's just the way we did it.

[00:25:33] I mean, we made the record on tape.

[00:25:34] There was no pro tools, no editing.

[00:25:37] I mean, we, I think he cut tape a couple of times, but there was no, you know, we had a, that was one of the reasons why we ended up making that record with Jerry Finn, because he was actually willing to do it without using pro tools.

[00:25:52] And everybody else that we talked to, you know, thought we were crazy.

[00:25:57] Um, and look, you know, after, you know, having made records in pro tools and kind of learning.

[00:26:08] I mean, ultimately it's just a recorder.

[00:26:11] You don't have to snap everything to a grid and fix everything and tune everything you don't have to do.

[00:26:18] You can just record.

[00:26:20] Um, but at the time, yeah, we, you know, we just kind of, we felt strongly about making the record a hundred percent analog until they pressed it on CD.

[00:26:33] And so, you know, that was a, that was a real luxury to get to work in a studio like that for that long and do things the way we did.

[00:26:44] We had, um, one of the things that's, that I've, I think is interesting about that record is that, you know, the, the normal conventional approach is like, get a great sounding drum kit, mic it up and knock out all the drums.

[00:27:03] You know, then go and put down all the guitar ones or whatever, then all the bass.

[00:27:11] Uh, but, but on that one, we had five different kits that could be, you know, sort of combined in, in, in any, any way that we saw fit and started each song sort of built from the, from the ground up.

[00:27:33] You know, rather than it's kind of that conveyor belt approach.

[00:27:39] So I think as a result of that, you know, each song kind of has its own atmosphere.

[00:27:46] And that's one of the things that I think is interesting about that record.

[00:27:49] Um, you know, basically we, uh, we didn't end up making a video.

[00:28:00] We talked about it for, you know, a couple of months with the director and made, you know, treatments and budgets and everything.

[00:28:07] And then it was just decided, yeah, no, we're not going to do that.

[00:28:11] I'm sure the label love that.

[00:28:13] Well, no, I mean, it was their decision not to do it.

[00:28:15] Oh, really?

[00:28:17] Uh, yeah.

[00:28:17] They, I mean, somebody else got that budget to make their video, you know?

[00:28:23] And so really that was the difference, um, between the first album and the second album.

[00:28:30] Granted, I mean, it didn't sound like anything else that was happening on the, on the radio in 1998.

[00:28:36] I mean, that was the, the advent of all this sort of like rap rock and Woodstock 99.

[00:28:43] Right.

[00:28:44] Right.

[00:28:45] I mean, you know, we had nothing to do with that.

[00:28:48] So the fact that it wasn't successful commercially really doesn't come as that much of a shock.

[00:28:54] Um, but it was definitely a downer to have the, you know, the tour support cut short, basically, you know, after about six months, it was, that was it.

[00:29:10] That was about all the time they were willing to spend trying to promote it at all.

[00:29:16] And so the, the advice that we got at the time was just to go home and write a new album.

[00:29:22] And so that's what we did.

[00:29:24] And that ended up being that third album.

[00:29:27] And, uh, you know, I ended up writing 30 something songs.

[00:29:32] They didn't like any of them.

[00:29:37] Um, yeah, it was weird.

[00:29:39] I mean, I don't, I don't really know what they were looking for from us.

[00:29:43] They could never, they never could explain what, what it was that the songs were lacking, you know?

[00:29:50] But anyway, long story short, I, I'm proud of the fact that we left it just like it was.

[00:29:57] And we finished it just the way we wanted it to be.

[00:30:01] And, you know, I think, uh, a good many super drag fans would probably agree.

[00:30:08] It's their favorite album.

[00:30:11] It's my favorite.

[00:30:14] So for, for what my opinions were.

[00:30:16] He's a phrase, uh, a hill worth dying on, you know, specifically, uh, about how that ended up.

[00:30:22] And, and I, and I think in a sense, you're saying that to kind of maybe contrast or compare to the way things shook out with the latest record.

[00:30:32] But I, you know, as I, as I get older, um, it's become more and more clear to me that a really big and important part of growing up and maturing is, is sort of reexamining some of, you know, in, in therapy, they call them core beliefs.

[00:30:58] But reexamining these things that, um, for whatever reason that you adhered to and realizing that to a certain extent, maybe some of those decisions that we make when we're younger are, can be completely arbitrary.

[00:31:19] Yeah, that's true.

[00:31:22] Definitely.

[00:31:23] Definitely.

[00:31:23] I mean, the, the, you know, we spent a long time trying to please them and, you know, just kept writing and kept writing and kept writing.

[00:31:34] Uh, at one point they wanted me to go and write a song with Adam Schlesinger, which I did because I mean, obviously I had a ton of respect for Adam Schlesinger.

[00:31:44] And I mean, as far as like things that the label is making you do, that's a pretty good one.

[00:31:48] I would.

[00:31:49] Yeah, it was great.

[00:31:49] I mean, I had a great time, you know, I'm really sad that he's not with us anymore.

[00:31:56] Uh, but yeah, he was, he was nice as could be.

[00:31:59] And, and, uh, just literally just showed up on his doorstep and, you know, I started playing him some of my four track stuff and he was like, man, what do they want me to do with this?

[00:32:09] These are kick-ass finished songs.

[00:32:11] You know, so we, we did end up writing a song and I didn't like that either, but you know, it's, it's not like, uh, we just flatly refuse to make an effort, you know, to, to get along.

[00:32:24] Um, cause I mean, we wanted our record to come out, man.

[00:32:27] You know, we, we wanted it to come out like it was supposed to, and we wanted to go back on tour.

[00:32:32] Uh, but you know, it, it, it sort of, uh, for me, it, it, it got really personal.

[00:32:46] Um, and the A&R guy said something to me that insulted me so deeply that I never wanted to speak to him again.

[00:32:54] And I never did, I never spoke to him again.

[00:32:58] I still haven't.

[00:32:59] Uh, but you know,

[00:33:02] Are you able to repeat that or is that just too?

[00:33:05] Oh no.

[00:33:06] He just, he quoted, he quoted me some of the lyrics to one of the songs.

[00:33:10] It was like, you know what, man, nobody cares about that.

[00:33:12] Oh, good.

[00:33:14] I had just gone through like probably one of the roughest like periods of my entire life with, uh, losing a family member.

[00:33:25] And, you know, that, that was his way of, uh, I don't know.

[00:33:30] Maybe, I don't know if that was supposed to help me or I really don't know, but, uh, I just, at that point, it just got really personal and maybe for him, it wasn't personal.

[00:33:43] Uh, but yeah, I mean, I, I kept that root of bitterness that had that wrapped around my heart for like 20 years.

[00:33:53] You know, it took that long for me to wise up and, you know, rip it out of there and just forgive him.

[00:34:02] Talking of double-edged swords.

[00:34:04] I mean, that, that's the, maybe the downside to being so personal on an album is that it becomes a piece of you.

[00:34:15] And that if somebody says something like that to you, or maybe if it, you know, it could even be something silly, like maybe it's a bad review or the album didn't get, you know, the kind of reaction that you were, you were hoping for.

[00:34:28] Then it, it, you know, in a sense, it feels like a personal attack because it kind of is.

[00:34:34] Right.

[00:34:37] Well, that, I mean, that record, you know, probably more so than any other.

[00:34:42] And for at least, you know, for me, and it was just a really hard time for us in general after, you know, what happened with the second record and.

[00:34:54] You know, Tom, uh, quit the band.

[00:34:57] It just kind of seemed like everything was coming unglued.

[00:35:03] But in, in the midst of that, you know, trying to keep this songwriting process going and trying to, you know, trying to come up with whatever it is they thought we were missing.

[00:35:15] But, you know, it was just a lot of, uh, I can remember one time the guy told me, uh, he, we, he needed something that was going to reach him emotionally.

[00:35:28] Him specifically.

[00:35:29] Yeah.

[00:35:30] And, uh, you know, I was like, I don't know, man.

[00:35:33] I mean, this, this song here is about, you know, being a pallbearer at somebody's funeral.

[00:35:37] How much more emotional do you need it to be?

[00:35:41] You really can't be more emotional.

[00:35:46] So it was just a lot of foolishness.

[00:35:48] You know, it would have helped maybe for him to say, you know, can you just sound like green day or, you know, can you just sound like.

[00:35:57] Just tell me what you want.

[00:35:59] Limp biscuit or whoever, you know.

[00:36:02] But yeah, I mean, all that being said, you know, we just, we, all we could do was be us.

[00:36:08] And, you know, they signed us and that's what they got, you know, and it ultimately it just didn't work out for that third record.

[00:36:16] But, you know, we had, we had a good friend that ran a label arena rock recording.

[00:36:23] And the very first record he ever put out was a super drag seven inch.

[00:36:27] So, you know, that was the only call we made to try to, all we wanted to do was find somebody to help us put the record out and get us on the road.

[00:36:38] And that's pretty much what happened.

[00:36:40] So I would much rather, you know, be sitting here today talking about the way that whole thing happened rather than saying, well, yeah, man, you know, I went in the A&R guy's office and begged and pleaded for mercy and, you know, told him he could just write the record and we'd be his minstrels, you know.

[00:37:03] You know, I mean, imagine having to live that down and it probably wouldn't have mattered anyway.

[00:37:09] Yeah, so much of it is just luck and timing.

[00:37:12] And it strikes me, though, you know, looking at your career and some, you know, some of the personal things that you've been very upfront about both on record and in interviews.

[00:37:27] But it seems like so much of your evolution, sort of personally and musically is about learning how to have a healthy relationship with your work, if that makes sense.

[00:37:43] Yeah, it does.

[00:37:49] You know, I think maybe I figured it out.

[00:37:53] I don't know.

[00:37:54] I don't know.

[00:37:56] I mean, this record, Jinx, you know, once it finally got in gear, you know, the way it ended up, I mean, it was an absolute joy to make.

[00:38:11] And, you know, maybe one plus to spending that much time thinking about each song is that each one is exactly like it.

[00:38:23] I think it should be.

[00:38:24] Yeah.

[00:38:24] How often can you say that in life, right?

[00:38:26] Well, not so often.

[00:38:29] So it was, I guess, in one way that was an asset.

[00:38:35] And yeah, I just love I love how simple a lot of the songs are and I love how Spartan it is in places.

[00:38:43] And it took a kind of a, I don't know, a lot of twists and turns to get from the garage to, you know, what you hear on record.

[00:39:04] But I'm really psyched about the way it turned out.

[00:39:06] Part of what I'm kind of getting at when I mentioned having a healthy relationship is, like, obviously just being young and being in a touring band, you know, so much of that is playing at clubs and bars.

[00:39:22] And so much of that revolves around alcohol.

[00:39:26] I mean, that's one facet of it, that journey that you've been on.

[00:39:30] But also, it sounds like over the past, you know, maybe several years or like maybe since the bands got back together again is learning to play music and be in a band in a way that doesn't just sort of completely consume your life and isn't to the detriment of other parts of your life.

[00:39:54] Yeah.

[00:39:56] Yeah.

[00:39:56] I mean, that's definitely, I don't know, that definitely describes us, you know, for a long, long time.

[00:40:09] We just ate, slept and breathed Superdrag, you know, 24-7.

[00:40:14] It was never, you know, if we were off the road, we were riding.

[00:40:22] I mean, we had the drum kit in our kitchen and the four track on the stove and we worked on songs every day, you know.

[00:40:35] And yeah, I mean, the world does get pretty small, you know.

[00:40:41] Sometimes, yeah, like, you know, it's just all about the, you know, the people in the van, you know, getting to the next show, getting it on, like getting it done.

[00:40:53] And yeah, I mean, you do tune out a lot of things and a lot of things, you know, you miss out on a lot of things.

[00:41:01] A lot of birthdays and holidays and, you know, time that you can't get back.

[00:41:10] You know, there's definitely, you know, a lot has to be sacrificed.

[00:41:17] But that's just the nature of it, I guess.

[00:41:20] Something I've always been curious about and that I haven't, I don't think, heard you talk a lot about.

[00:41:27] Certainly not recently.

[00:41:30] And I'm not entirely sure how this sort of fits into the whole picture for you, but, you know, you put out a solo album of, you know, effectively religious songs.

[00:41:42] And that was a really important part of your life for that period.

[00:41:47] I mean, what role did that play in all of these things that we're talking about?

[00:41:51] Well, I had a pretty dramatic experience of sort of meeting God in a way that I really never had.

[00:42:14] And I mean, I grew up in church, you know, was baptized twice in case it didn't work the first time.

[00:42:23] Didn't take.

[00:42:25] You know, like a lot of Baptists.

[00:42:30] But it was.

[00:42:33] It was such a radical.

[00:42:37] Experience and was so mind blowing.

[00:42:43] Just kind of changed my relationship to everything.

[00:42:49] But I mean, you know, the probably the most important part of it was that, you know, from that moment forward.

[00:42:57] I mean, that was.

[00:43:01] November 11th of 2001.

[00:43:03] I haven't had a drop to drink since.

[00:43:10] And the only the only way that I can make sense of that is to give God the credit, because I had no intentions of making that change.

[00:43:26] And, you know, that that that all happened in the middle of a we were in the middle of recording last call for vitriol.

[00:43:36] And, you know, I had to take a couple of weeks off and, you know, I had to.

[00:43:43] You know, whether it's a whether it's a miracle or not, your body has to go through some things when you when you just pull the emergency brake like that and just stop drinking.

[00:43:57] So, I mean, there's definitely periods of time I really don't remember in those days.

[00:44:06] But anyway, we you know, we ended up finishing that record and, you know, we had commitments to go out and promote it on tour, which we did.

[00:44:16] And, you know, that was pretty difficult starting out.

[00:44:23] Being the sober guy in the room.

[00:44:25] Right. Yeah. I mean, it was it was pretty weird. It was tough.

[00:44:29] I stopped drinking about about five, five and a half years ago.

[00:44:33] And these two things are incomparable, but maybe there's sort of a little bit of truth in this for you is I remember I'm a big fan of karaoke.

[00:44:41] And I remember it was so hard for me to go up and sing in front of people the first several times because I didn't have a little bit of that, you know, artificial courage in my system.

[00:44:53] Well, for me, it was.

[00:44:57] You know, you can get to a point where.

[00:45:01] You know, when you're on stage hammered and that's just the way you're used to being.

[00:45:08] And, you know, there's there's about a three foot perimeter and everything beyond that's or, you know, so you don't really notice people looking at you or, you know, you're just kind of.

[00:45:22] I don't know, I don't know, in your own little space.

[00:45:27] And didn't have that anymore, you know.

[00:45:35] But I spent a long time, you know, in.

[00:45:48] You know, there was there was a church in Nashville that we went to for a long time and it was great there.

[00:45:54] Loved it there.

[00:45:55] But.

[00:45:58] You know, things happen and things changed and I really haven't been involved with a church.

[00:46:05] In quite a while.

[00:46:11] But I mean, my faith remains.

[00:46:14] You know, the church itself, I don't know what the capital C like the or at least the the political armor that kind of lost me a while ago.

[00:46:29] You know, for reasons that are probably pretty obvious.

[00:46:37] You know, it's it's it's really weird when those those two things mix and they're pretty much one in the same.

[00:46:49] But, you know, I think like it, like everything else, you know, it's just something that.

[00:47:00] I've tried to express and deal with.

[00:47:04] You know, in writing songs, I mean, those first couple of records of mine, for sure, the solo records, you know, this one, I don't know.

[00:47:17] I mean, it doesn't really deal with the gospel.

[00:47:19] I mean, it wasn't it wasn't really a conscious choice or anything.

[00:47:23] That's just the way the songs turned out, you know.

[00:47:30] But the the most recent thing that I pressed up on vinyl and put out was a bunch of my four track stuff.

[00:47:38] And a lot of it was sort of, you know, gospel oriented.

[00:47:43] And I wanted to dedicate that to my dad because he he passed away last spring.

[00:47:50] And after, you know, a long illness.

[00:47:53] And.

[00:47:56] So that was, you know, that was I enjoyed putting that together, you know, for that reason.

[00:48:01] And.

[00:48:03] Yeah, I mean, that's man, it's an interesting question.

[00:48:05] There's I feel like I could I could spend a long time answering that question.

[00:48:10] And, you know, and in a certain sense, you know, music can play this role, too.

[00:48:14] But life's hard, man.

[00:48:17] And, you know, like it and the world is a scary place.

[00:48:22] And, you know, if if you found like a source of comfort in all that, by all means, like hold on to that with your life.

[00:48:32] Well, yeah, I mean, it was.

[00:48:35] Like I said earlier, though, the experience I had that night.

[00:48:40] Was so powerful.

[00:48:42] There would be no way for me not to believe.

[00:48:47] I mean, it made me a believer.

[00:48:53] And.

[00:48:55] Yeah, it wasn't I didn't hear a voice, but I kind of felt the voice.

[00:49:01] And.

[00:49:03] I guess you could say it was the Holy Spirit saying, do you love me or do you hate me?

[00:49:13] And at that at that moment.

[00:49:16] It just seemed like a choice between life and death.

[00:49:19] If you're talking about alcoholism, it absolutely was.

[00:49:22] Right.

[00:49:22] Yeah, definitely.

[00:49:23] I mean, my skin was yellow.

[00:49:25] Like my body was in bad shape.

[00:49:30] And, you know, the sad thing was I felt like that was part of my job, you know, to to die young.

[00:49:40] You know, I mean, what?

[00:49:42] That's that's one of this.

[00:49:44] That's one of the most.

[00:49:44] That's one of the sickest, you know, distortion truth that has claimed a lot of.

[00:49:51] A lot of people that should have lived a hell of a lot longer and not a lot more than they than they did.

[00:49:57] You know, just this notion of that somehow self-destruction and rock and roll are the same thing.

[00:50:04] But really, you know, rock and roll to me is about freedom.

[00:50:12] It's a synonym for freedom.

[00:50:16] And really, you know, climbing in a bottle every night of your life, I wouldn't say is all that liberating.

[00:50:27] And it's kind of like a prison, you know, in itself.

[00:50:33] So glad that I'm really glad that I was delivered from that, because, like I said, I really didn't have any intentions of changing anything.

[00:50:42] I was just going to write it out till the end.

[00:50:46] So to be sitting here talking to you now at age 50, something I never thought I would do.

[00:50:52] I'm a dream.